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SolaraGuy.com • View topic - Words of Wisdom from Tony The Tiger
For those looking for more speed through force. Forced Induction; Supercharger,Turbocharger or Nitrous discussion and maintenance.

Words of Wisdom from Tony The Tiger

Re: Words of Wisdom from Tony The Tiger

Postby ecms171 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:23 am

More from tony, Mostlly on turbos on my build thread
gotta love the detail
PART A
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My old setups didn't have as much info then my later setups, simply because I didn't have as much knowledge back then...lol!

I started with a Supra CT26 turbo... To clear some rumors, the CT26 made full boost at 2500-2800RPM, but it was only 8 PSI of boost so "full boost" is only 8 PSI. The higher boost you run, the later "full boost" will be reached because the turbo needs time to build more boost. The CT26 is a pretty lazy turbo now in modern standards, and I remembered that it was becoming laggy when I turned up to the boost to 14 PSI. The CT26 was already drying out and 14 PSI of boost came in very slowly.

I've later upgraded to a 57-trim CT26 (the common 57-trim compressor upgrade) and on a bone stock 1MZ-FE motor, I made 357 WHP @ 14-16 PSI (I forget the exact boost). I drove it for a few months with that power, but my first prototype IPT transmission took a crap afterwards. I had to re-send the transmission back to IPT for more R&D and upgrades, and during those few months, that's when I took the motor out and had it fully built. The stock internals were still fine after several months of 357 WHP, but the rod bearings look pretty beat; and with my experience now, the motor wouldn't last too long at that power level. ** My guess now, would be that the stock motor probably start to score up the rod bearings, and then I would get a mildly spun bearing shortly after, and then the rods will fly out of the block eventually**

To extract maximum power out of a stock motor, you first have to determine what the weakness of the motor is. On the 1MZ-FE, the high compression will raise the chances for detonation which would also be the first thing to worry about. A proper FMIC + water/meth will help lower the chances for detonation, and should be plenty safe for low boost levels.

The next weakness of the motor would be the connecting rods. The book "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell is a good book for starters, but it is written in very basic car language. It explains about the different piston loading and forces acting against the connecting rod, and labels it with a basic rule, with forces being exponentially higher as you increase redline by a factor of 1000 RPM. This is only true if our cars make the same torque from 2000RPM to 6800RPM (flat torque curve). Our 1MZ-FE's do not make flat torque curves in turbo form, so whenever torque drops at higher RPM, stress on the rods also drops. Of course, the stress depends on how high of an RPM we are speaking of, but we have a good ballpark figure already because we know what the useable redline for a 1MZ-FE is.

Our 1MZ'FE's will usually make peak torque at 4000-4500RPM, and then plummet down when approaching redline. Torque can drop, but horsepower can still climb or stay flat due to the relationship between TQ and HP. If your horsepower is still climbing at 6500RPM but torque is dropping, you can still increase the redline by say 500RPM (7000 RPM redline) and after all the math gibberish, your rods are still going through similar stresses at a higher RPM but lower torque output.

To keep the motor alive, first thing you need to do is control the peak torque. Ultimately, this is what sends those rods flying out of the block. I would try to stay below 300 WTQ. You would want to choose a slighty larger turbo so power comes a bit later in the RPM band, but size it well so that boost is still responsive and peppy. If you decide on a GT2871R which is a 420HP-rated turbo, but to control torque and allowing the motor to breathe well, you would opt for the largest T3-based 0.82 A/R housing for this turbo. If you choose the bigger GT30R, you would choose the larger 1.06 A/R turbine housing option. Turbine flow maps are just as important as compressor flow maps. Most off the shelf turbo configurations are meant for smaller displacemebt 4-cyl engines with signifcantly lesser exhaust flow and much lower BSFC.

You also want a nice free flowing exhaust. Unlike low compression factory turbo cars like Lancer Evo's, Supras, etc.. our 1MZ-FE has high compression. Elevated exhaust pressures and heat will increase the chance of detonation double-fold. You can choke an Evo motor at 20 PSI with a small exhaust and it will hold up. You can't make a turbo 1MZ-FE live through any boost if you keep your stock exhaust, or running a dinky 2.5" exhaust. Minumum is 3" in my standards, just because the amount of torque that our 1MZ-FE makes, is probably equivalent to a 500 WHP Honda in terms of exhaust energy. Size the exhaust based on comparable outputs and engine combinations, and not just by horsepower only.

If you have any questions, just ask... :) Sometimes I just want to slap a stock 1MZ back into my Camry, and see how much power it would take! I've got really good with making crazy power with weak motors. I've tuned a few Stock Honda B18C's making 500+ WHP.. Recently I tuned a 658 WHP bone stock F22C (S2000 motor) swapped inside an AE86; last year, this same engine had 560 WHP and running for over 12000 miles and weekend racing. I've also made 1044 WHP on my Supra, bone stock unopened 2JZ-GTE motor with stock headgasket, headbolts and everything. I'd just laugh if I could make 500 WHP out of a stock 1MZ-FE, and then I would share the recipe with all of you guys one day :)





PART B
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With pistons and rods, you can go well past 300 lbft of torque... Our motors aren't that great in terms of head and combuston chamber design, so on pump fuel (91 or 94 oct), it will depend on your compression ratio to determine what's the safe limit. When I had 9.0:1 CR, I ran it at 460 lbft of torque on 94 oct, and there were no problems. I went higher later on, and plugs showed signs of light detonation. Mechanically the motor will take it, so we have to worry about detonation again in terms of finding the limits.

For turbo sizing, the wheel trim is the ratio between the inducer and exducer... You don't have to worry about trim numbers for either compressor or exhaust, just because the trim affects the flow and pressure ratio of a certain wheel. The result is the full compressor map you see on Garrett's website, so just base your flow and sizing on the compressor map because that's all you'll need.

For the exhaust housing and turbine wheel sizing, for example, like a GT2871R, or a GT3071R; these two turbos have the same compressor wheel and HP rating, but the GT30 series has a larger exhaust wheel. The 1MZ isn't too efficient in making power based on fuel consumption, and it means that for the same amount of mass air flow from the turbo compressor, our motors uses more fuel for the same given power (higher BSFC) versus a more efficient engine. So a GT2871R compressor rated for 42-45 lbs/min allows for roughly 400 WHP, but the 1MZ motor needs a lot of fuel to do it. More fuel means more exhaust energy, more heat and more flow out of the exhaust.

The same air going inside a 11.5:1 CR Honda 4-cyl engine for example, requires much less fuel to support the same power. It is due to efficiency. Higher revving, better overall VE, better burn, higher compression ratio are factors contributing to efficiency. So the same given 400WHP worth of flow, the Honda uses much less fuel. Lesser fuel means lesser exhaust energy, lesser exhaust flow, thus, requiring a smaller turbine wheel and housing.

So that is why the GT2871R is really designed for smaller 4-cyl engines. If you run the GT2871R on the 1MZ, you will be fine until about 350 WHP, until the exhaust energy maxes out the turbine side and begins to choke based on the turbine maps. This just simply mean that the turbo was improperly sized. There is no point to run a 400 WHP compressor wheel if the turbine side chokes at 350WHP. So a better turbo (GT28 series) for a 1MZ, is actually the GT28RS. It is the same GT28 turbine wheel and housing, but a 350 WHP rated compressor wheel. Perfect match for that power level. But if you want 400-420 WHP, you have to step up to a GT3071R for a 1MZ-FE :D

I know you are probably wondering how do I determine that the 1MZ-FE uses a lot more fuel than a Honda engine at the same power? You have to tune the motor to find out. The power my engine makes, versus the amount of injector duty in relation to injector size and rail pressure, lets me know how much fuel I am burning based on the power I was making at a certain RPM.
There is no "clean" way to calculate this. You have to go by prior experiences with other engines. I would tune a Honda Civic B16A with a GT2871R for example, and I notice it starts to choke right at 420 WHP (maxing out the compressor). So in this case, the turbo is well matched. I would go back to the fuel maps and determine the BSFC for the given HP. From there, I have useable a figure to work with. Then I would crunch in some numbers for my Camry and check out the amount of fuel used when I was making 420 WHP, and right away, I have found a useable figure and can determine the BSFC as well. With BSFC and amount of airflow consumed into the engine, you can get the exhaust flow figure just using some online calculators.

But I did all the research for you already.. Your best turbo for maximum spool per HP output (and within Garrett GT-series) is:

560-680 WHP --> GT4094R 0.85 A/R hsg;
The GT4088R ideally has the best comp flow sizing for this power, but the wheel does not have a high enough pressure ratio to make it there on a mildly built 1MZ. It needs bigger valves, port work, etc.. Goodies that allow more power at a lower PSI.

420-560WHP --> GT3582R 1.06 A/R hsg.

300-420 WHP --> GT3071R, T3 0.82 A/R hsg.

260-300 WHP --> GT28RS, T3 0.82 A/R hsg.
230-260 WHP --> GT28RS, T2 0.86 A/R hsg.
Bone stock 1MZ Camry
Hoping to be boosted(TURBO)
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Re: Words of Wisdom from Tony The Tiger

Postby Tony the Tiger » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:02 am

There isn't much I can update these days, but a lot of the newer cars and turbo builds revolve around the same thing. So it has been about 4 years now and the information I read back from my old posts is still good current information :)

Understanding these concepts will allow you to properly size the turbo for your particular engine, for both sides (comp and turbine). To be more specific for the current builds, engines limited by octane will require a different turbo than an engine that is not (e.g. E85 fuel). Of course, all this adds onto knowing how to trace your engine's airflow curve onto the compressor map to cover the basics.

It's great to know the info I have shared above was actually a bit ahead of its time. Just in the past year now, you finally see turbo matching data sheets that would require the same information that I have explained. For example, the Borg Warner EFR Matchbot is an online calculator that speaks of fuel consumption (BSFC -HP), turbine expansion ratios (compression ratio, flow vs HP ratio), the engine's torque curve/VE at five data points, and so forth.

I've been having great success with my 1MZ and 3MZ builds... I haven't been wrenching on my Camry much at all this year. It has been awesome, and I put so much beating on the car at this power level that I am so happy with the car.

For some proven stuff, I would say:

Stock 1MZ sleeves and block are reliable to withstand 700-800WHP

Stock 3MZ-sleeves 1MZ/3MZ crank and block are reliable to withstand 1000WHP

Rod bearings and main bearings go through very acceptable wear on Amsoil Race oil or Motul 300v. After 12000kms of almost all racing mileage and high RPM, the bearings could use a replacement but not totally necessary. I replaced mine just for preventative maintenance now at 1000+ WHP and 8400RPM. It can be done just dropping off the oil pans, and was only a few hour job :)

Stock MR2 E163 transmission and LSD can actually hold 1000WHP and 750 WTQ for a long time. Through highway pulls, time attack, bad wheel hop, everything. Insane to even think that the E153 can hold this power in a FWD configuration in stock form, but it did for about 3 years now. It reminds me of a Supra Getrag V160, but for us Camry folks...lol

I had a few good runs with very proven fast cars... I will try to tone this down, but I had no problems beating 9-10 sec bikes that trap 140+ mph, and had a fair share of wins against Alpha 10 GTR's or GTR's in the 800-1000WHP range at low speed races. I haven't dragged raced them at the track, but on the street and not much staging time for the R35, my traction control and power delivery curve allows me to stay behind the 1K+ WHP GTR's about 2-3 cars from zero to 100km/h, but by 150 km/h we are even, and at 180 km/h I'd pull pass them.
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Re: Words of Wisdom from Tony The Tiger

Postby Gregtrd » Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:39 pm

Tony that 100wtq per liter is debunked I was running 427wtq for some time and i cant seem to blow up this engine mind you I did lots of drag racing (stock block btw TRD supercharger 15psi)
The Fastest Camry in Socal
366whp / 427wtq @10.5psi
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