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Water Injection Advice...

Water Injection Advice...

Postby Just1n_mc » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:26 am

So my brother and I are looking to fit water injection on my TRD charged 1MZ running an 8psi pulley. The car is currently producing 274hp at the wheel running a Megasquirt ECU and we plan on upgrading cams shortly and raising the rev limit to 7,000rpm.

My questions are what size nozzle or nozzles should I be running and where is the best place in the intake to mount them?

Having read countless different opinions on what to do and what setups should work I thought it would be better to ask people who are actually water injection on these setups.

Any advice/information would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: Water Injection Advice...

Postby stringbean » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:34 am

well im planing on going sc but i have friends on different platforms that are sc and running meth. but i think if im mistaken correctly the best setup for our cars are to tap a TB spacer or the TB with a 625 nozzle and tap the sc itself with a 325 nozzle, i think. Greg is swears by his setup! and in another topic Gabe got a 80 degree drop in temp using meth and dual nozzle setup!

Hope this helps!
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Re: Water Injection Advice...

Postby Gregtrd » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:44 am

not swearing, but track driven dyno proven. don't make me post my dyno sheet again
track#s 8.4 at the 1/8mile with only 2 passes on the mickeys. just look at my sig, without the w/m
i don't think i would of got those numbers. Albertrd solara is bumping up to the 8# pulley as well
as long as you run the right set up and dyno i don't why it wont handle. i predicting the solara to hit 315-320whp with 8#s.
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Re: Water Injection Advice...

Postby crispone » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:24 am

Not to question any comments in here so far, but more to share/compare what I am learning with what you guys know...

In the case of the Supra community, I am understanding that WATER in particular does not "atomize" as well and particularly on a FFIM setup on the straight six, won't "make the turn", especially into the first intake runner if shot in the TB before the intake tract. This creates bad variability of intake mixture and some pistons run hotter than others and detonation is still a high risk. For this reason, individual runner specific nozzles are encouraged and have been used with great success.

Another thing I'm reflecting on in MY particular setup on the Supra is that water is somewhat "easier" to tune since it doesn't effect the overall fuel mapping as much as using meth, although meth is better for optimum cooling and detonation resistance hence highest boost level power and safety. Since I have an OLD SCHOOL piggyback setup and not a full stand alone, tuning for meth/no-meth modes becomes tricky. Eventually, I still plan on a meth/water intake tract specific setup that only kicks in ABOVE 12~15psi so I can run 20+psi levels without grenading the whole thing...

...just some corollary thoughts since I'm bored... :wink:





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Re: Water Injection Advice...

Postby stringbean » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:39 am

crisp you make a good point, and i think in the 1mz engines it depends on what series 1mz you have, because the earlier 1mz such as mine in the gen 3 camry have return style fuel rails and have 6 coil packs vers 3. and as i recall my fuel injection system is better then the newer ones so maybe that will help me not to run into the issue you've described but im not sure either. It wouldnt be a bad idea to run nozzles into the fuel rails if possible if thats what your getting at. and now that you bring that to my attention i think i may have to look into it for when i sc my camry. now im thinking maybe the rails and sc instead of TB spacer and sc.
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Re: Water Injection Advice...

Postby crispone » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:54 am

stringbean wrote:crisp you make a good point, and i think in the 1mz engines it depends on what series 1mz you have, because the earlier 1mz such as mine in the gen 3 camry have return style fuel rails and have 6 coil packs vers 3. and as i recall my fuel injection system is better then the newer ones so maybe that will help me not to run into the issue you've described but im not sure either. It wouldnt be a bad idea to run nozzles into the fuel rails if possible if thats what your getting at. and now that you bring that to my attention i think i may have to look into it for when i sc my camry. now im thinking maybe the rails and sc instead of TB spacer and sc.



Yeah, please discount my thoughts relative the Solara application because I'm not knowledgeable about the 1MZ s/c but I know that very well versed Supra guys have cautioned about the mixture's ability to make that turn and EVENLY feed all six tracts. I'm sure intake manifold and runner design has a huge play in this, and the standard "over-the-top" Supra 7M (MKIII) motor will more readily ALLOW a TB injection without trouble, but the 2JZ (MKIV) or otherwise modified 7M motor (with FFIM) creates a real "kink" (literally) at the 90* bend from TB flow to piston #1 (and #2, for that matter) where you really risk a HOT SPOT and unequal air/fuel/injection mix ration between the cylinders. The guy I get good counsel from even said he has telemetry (temps) off ALL SIX banks on a client's application and it was a HUGE impact between TB -vs- runner injection, with big gains in power and durability with the latter.

Fortunately, my custom made 5 liter FFIM HAS individual threaded ports for nozzles on all six runners for when I finally install it. :D (Atomization is supposed to also be substantially better, as intake velocity is so high at that point just prior to the valves as well... not to mention the consistency of mixture AND responsiveness of on/off injection without the turbulence in the intake plenum chamber...)


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Re: Water Injection Advice...

Postby 1gSE » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:26 pm

Well with my set up, I have one 441ml nozzle mounted about 4 inches from the tb, the pressure switch is set to turn on at 5 psi. After a quick 3rd get pull and pulling over immediately you can feel the temperature difference, mainly between the s/c itself and the plenum. I'd need more road to cool the rest of it. Like I said in my other thread, I did my tune before I added the meth/water. I'm using it strictly for knock protection and cooling the blower. Your best bet would be putting it on a dyno and tuning for meth/more power, if thats the route you want to take, but I'd advise a separate map for WOT without meth. Its been a long time since I read up on MegaSquirt so I'm not sure what it's capable of now. I run an AEM FIC so if I wanted to change tunes, I'd have to hook my laptop up and load another map to it
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Re: Water Injection Advice...

Postby crispone » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:53 pm

1gSE wrote:Well with my set up, I have one 441ml nozzle mounted about 4 inches from the tb, the pressure switch is set to turn on at 5 psi. After a quick 3rd get pull and pulling over immediately you can feel the temperature difference, mainly between the s/c itself and the plenum. I'd need more road to cool the rest of it. Like I said in my other thread, I did my tune before I added the meth/water. I'm using it strictly for knock protection and cooling the blower. Your best bet would be putting it on a dyno and tuning for meth/more power, if thats the route you want to take, but I'd advise a separate map for WOT without meth. Its been a long time since I read up on MegaSquirt so I'm not sure what it's capable of now. I run an AEM FIC so if I wanted to change tunes, I'd have to hook my laptop up and load another map to it



That's exactly it, right there. With standalone, no problem. With OLD SCHOOL HKS alphabet-soup "analog" piggyback array to work with, making the dual-map work is tricky on the 7M off a PFC F-con in my case.

I'm sure similar hurdles must be overcome with the 1mz crowd... only different. :wink:



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Re: Water Injection Advice...

Postby Just1n_mc » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:11 pm

Sorry if this is a stupid question but why a seperate map for wide open throttle without meth? Is that in case you get stuck somewhere and can only use water??
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Re: Water Injection Advice...

Postby crispone » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:42 pm

Just1n_mc wrote:Sorry if this is a stupid question but why a seperate map for wide open throttle without meth? Is that in case you get stuck somewhere and can only use water??



So, in my case, the need for two maps is related to the fact that I would not be using meth/water injection ALL THE TIME, not specific to WOT scenario specifically. I can already "safely" run into and over 15psi all day long. I want to be able to have meth/water begin kicking in at some level ABOVE my "low" or "medium" boost pre-sets. Since the car is running WOT even at those boost levels, that would be my "base map". (without meth/water) I already have full control of BOOST and can "trigger" it with the SBC (Scramble Boost Controller) for levels above the 12~15psi. I need a SECOND MAP to "take over" now when higher boost (16~20psi and above) is dialed, as the meth/water would kick in and CHANGE the mixture so the base tune is not suited to running stoich. My particular T04z setup is optimum at 20psi and above. I'm not even in it's "sweet spot" and the thing pulls like jet rocket thrust... I just want MOARRRR!!!! :drinking:

...does that make sense?




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Re: Water Injection Advice...

Postby 1gSE » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:04 pm

Also, lets say your car is tuned for meth (you'd have to run a little leaner since the meth is like a secondary fuel) and your tank runs dry or it fails to activate, you have a sudden lean condition at WOT.....thats when things start to go boom
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Re: Water Injection Advice...

Postby Just1n_mc » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:47 pm

So how does your ECU know to switch maps?
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Re: Water Injection Advice...

Postby Gregtrd » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:04 pm

1gSE wrote:Also, lets say your car is tuned for meth (you'd have to run a little leaner since the meth is like a secondary fuel) and your tank runs dry or it fails to activate, you have a sudden lean condition at WOT.....thats when things start to go boom



you can tell/feel when you run out of meth.
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Re: Water Injection Advice...

Postby Gregtrd » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:06 pm

Just1n_mc wrote:So how does your ECU know to switch maps?


piggy back takes care of that. (esc1/afr controller to better fine tune your open loop)
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Re: Water Injection Advice...

Postby Gregtrd » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:09 pm

Just1n_mc wrote:So my brother and I are looking to fit water injection on my TRD charged 1MZ running an 8psi pulley. The car is currently producing 274hp at the wheel running a Megasquirt ECU and we plan on upgrading cams shortly and raising the rev limit to 7,000rpm.

My questions are what size nozzle or nozzles should I be running and where is the best place in the intake to mount them?

Having read countless different opinions on what to do and what setups should work I thought it would be better to ask people who are actually water injection on these setups.

Any advice/information would be greatly appreciated.


btw its water/METH, if you go with just water it wont be as effective and it will quench with less fuild.
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