Help Deciding on audio Components...

[SoSleek]

Have i heard the type r's...yes I have I will post more on that later, with pics.

So you know a little but about the driver construction. It is common for alpine to rate their xmax closer to the actual excursion limit (xlim) which is the failing point, or hard limit of excursion. JL audio generally determines their xmax based on xlim/2. Meaning, if JL rated their woofers on a comparable scale to how most other manufacturers rate it would be upwards of 30mm. While comparing specs lets take a look at the Vas (Volume of Acoustic Suspension). This is the volume of air which has the same stiffness as the drivers suspension. w6=80liters and the type-r=38liters. This means that the w6 can reproduce accurate and efficient bass in twice the enclosure size than the type-r. This gives crystal clear frequency response throughout a much wider range.

So as i said in my previous post, on a good day the type-R may be a bit louder (if you were to put it in a ported box, vs the w6 sealed), but it will NEVER outperform "note-for-note" the JL w6, or get close by any means. Don't even get me started on the w7. I have heard both, I have tuned both, and I have years of experience with both brands. Alpine has greatly improved their drivers in the past few years, but it is just no competition.

If you have the money go JL. In this scenario we are talking a $100 difference. DO IT.

[crispone]

-crisp

[Aotoyota]

so you're saying that it takes twice the airspace it will sound better?
and the soft suspension will make it sound better>

given what you said why would anyone want to use a sub that needs twice as
much airspace to make the same amount of output and have the same sound
as the alpine's?

and why does JL do all the math for you to find Xmax? if it as you say put it
down for everyone to see, there shouldnt be anything to hide or is there?

ultimately, I have my ears which tell me that both subwoofers are very good
transducers. Note for note, the NEW type R is that much better with the
increased excursion and the better specs including a 30% larger magnet for
more power than previous and of the JL. slap either one in a box, and the JL
will hard bottom while the Type-R will play without any problems.

but hey you have more experience with the stuff. what do I know I only
had an F1 system in the solara not to mention those crappy Dynaudios
three-ways?

ultimately BadAngel, go listen and buy what you like and can afford,
We will go back and forth for years like ford vs dodge.

[SoSleek]

so you're saying that it takes twice the airspace it will sound better?
and the soft suspension will make it sound better

I like the way you interpreted that, lol. No that is not at all what I typed. To put it in lamens terms for you, the W6 could create the same pressure inside a sealed enclosure twice the size of what the Type-R could. This gives you clearer frequency response throughout a wider range. Meaning the W6 could probably play high frequency treble notes better than the type r could play bass, haha. To create that pressure you would need a stiffer suspension, not looser.

but hey you have more experience with the stuff. what do I know I only
had an F1 system in the solara not to mention those crappy Dynaudios
three-ways?

This is exactly my point. You are going solely off what you have owned, and trying to compare "with your ears" to something that you have never heard before. I know this because a well tuned W6 running off 600w would just put shame to your suggestion. There is NO audiophile out there that would agree with you. I could only see one type of person agreeing with you and that would be the opinion of a ghetto bass, one-note-wonder, band-pass box junkie.

We will go back and forth for years like ford vs dodge.

True, we could argue this all day, but I would relate it more to BMW(JL) vs Ford(Alpine)...atleast when it comes to drivers. Lucky for us, we both drive Toyota's.

[crispone]

...I drive a Toyota TOO!






-crisp

[Aotoyota]

@ Crisp- Woot
I never said the W6 wasn't an awesome woofer just the new Type-R's are better.

Here are the Klippel graphs of both woofer. This is not a "rating" from a manufacturer, rather, it is an industry standard in measurement. The below test is from CA&E's test of the W6. The Type R Graph is from the Alpine website.

Klippel defines Xmax at either 82% or 70% of the rest BL-value. This corresponds to 1% and 10% (audible) distortion. Dumax always used 70%, so let's stick with that.

Let's look at JL ... rest BL = 20T*m, Xmax = 14T*m --> Xmax = -17mm and +16mm.



Let's now take a look at the Alpine ... Rest Bl = 9T*m (since it is measure in parallel vs. series, the value is 1/2). 70% Xmax = 6.3T*m --> Xmax = -22mm +21mm



So .. looks like JL was honest and Alpine was a bit conservative .. yet neither lied, and the Alpine definitely has more linear, distortion free excursion than the JL does

While comparing specs lets take a look at the Vas (Volume of Acoustic Suspension). This is the volume of air which has the same stiffness as the drivers suspension. w6=80liters and the type-r=38liters. This means that the w6 can reproduce accurate and efficient bass in twice the enclosure size than the type-r. This gives crystal clear frequency response throughout a much wider range.

Excuse me? How does a woofer having a soft suspension allow it to reproduce accurate and efficient bass? Please explain that to me, cause I just don't understand it from your simple statement.

What it actually means is that the W6 needs significantly more airspace (ie - less installation friendly) to have the same in box response and low frequency extension. It also means that the W6's suspension is much softer and more likely to allow the woofer to hard bottom, something that is horrible for reliability in ported box applications. I know first hand it will hard bottom since I've actually seen/heard it bottom in JL's recommended ported box.

Anyhow ... we're talking sealed ... so let's go there ... In box, let's go ahead and see how this actually works out for the onlookers

W6 is recommended for 1.25cubes ... netting a QTC of 0.775 and and F3 of 40.5Hz

Let's put the Alpine in that box. QTC = 0.766, F3 = 39.0Hz ... ruh, ruh ... looks like the Alpine will be less boomy as well as play lower.

Now let's try it in a more car-friendly 1ft^3 box ... a more typical installation.
JL: QTC = 0.864, F3 = 42.85Hz
Alpine: QTC = 0.848, F3 = 41.0Hz.

Again, the Alpine play lower, louder (Xmax) and tighter in either enclosure. Let's not forget it is almost 1.5" shallower, so it'll be easier to install as well.

I like the way you interpreted that, lol. No that is not at all what I typed. To put it in lamens terms for you, the W6 could create the same pressure inside a sealed enclosure twice the size of what the Type-R could. This gives you clearer frequency response throughout a wider range. Meaning the W6 could probably play high frequency treble notes better than the type r could play bass, haha. To create that pressure you would need a stiffer suspension, not looser.

Ok .. so wait... you need a stiffer suspension to create that pressure, correct? Yet the JL has a VAS of 80L vs 38L for Alpine, meaning the suspension is LOOSER than that of the Alpine. Things that make you go hmmm

BTW, the suspension has little to nothing to do with what kind of pressure the woofer can create in a sealed enclosure, instead it is the xmax .. something we've already proven that the Alpine does better than the JL.

any questions?
and have a good nite everyone!

mic drops and Aotoyota exits stage left...

[NightRider]

The admin of this post is going nuts! LoL!

[crispone]

The admin of this post is going nuts! LoL!

...but it's still the best thing in cyberguy solaraspace at the moment...






-crisp

[Aotoyota]

Glad you're enjoying it Crisp.
I can only aspire to create a 20 page thread that updates
every few months like you.

[crispone]

Glad you're enjoying it Crisp.
I can only aspire to create a 20 page thread that updates
every few months like you.

-crisp

[BadAngel]

oh boy... LOL

[SoSleek]

http://www.canadiancaraudio.com/online/ ... pline.html

http://caraudio.com/forum/subwoofers/12 ... -w6v2.html

http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthread.php?t=259305

http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f27/jl-12 ... -r-172209/

Will someone please tally up the votes? Or perhaps I've collected links only in my favor, one might argue. google "Type-R vs W6v2" and you will see these are the top 4 results.

But keep posting your charts Aotoyota. Maybe they are a better representation of quality sound than 70+ pairs of trained ears. I even searched Type-X vs w6v2 and although that may have been a closer battle the W6 still won, haha.

*SoSleek drops mic, exits stage right with e-wiener draggin'*

[crispone]

-crisp

[Aotoyota]

you must be a knucklehead who can't read " NEW" which is in capitals...

ill even give you model number for you to research for the next four days, since
it took you that long to find anything. and sending links dating from 2005 and some
even earlier? talk about apples and oranges.

and i agree that the subs from 05 didnt compare wtih the W6 but I keep referring to the NEW
read that " NEW" design.

Alpine SWR-1023D
Alpine SWR-1043D
Alpine SWR-1223D
Alpine SWR-1243D

They are even copy friendly to google.
and heres one for you, these are still relatively new but from your own
caraudio.com

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/subwoofer ... yet-3.html

and can you explain VAS again, i dont understand the looser the suspension the better
the SQ?

[SoSleek]

you must be a knucklehead who can't read " NEW" which is in capitals...

ill even give you model number for you to research for the next four days, since
it took you that long to find anything. and sending links dating from 2005 and some
even earlier? talk about apples and oranges.

and i agree that the subs from 05 didnt compare wtih the W6 but I keep referring to the NEW
read that " NEW" design.

Alpine SWR-1023D
Alpine SWR-1043D
Alpine SWR-1223D
Alpine SWR-1243D

They are even copy friendly to google.
and heres one for you, these are still relatively new but from your own
caraudio.com

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/subwoofer ... yet-3.html

and can you explain VAS again, i dont understand the looser the suspension the better
the SQ?

Yes, it took me 4 days to type in "w6 vs Type-R" into Google. Or it might be that I don't log in to Solaraguy everyday.

The post that you linked really only states that they are good subs, and better than they previous. I never disagreed with either of those statements. But yes, I suppose it is apples to oranges...because JL has just stood still these past few years while alpine just BLEW AHEAD in technology.