Water/Meth Injection System

[Alex(AUS)]

Oh fair enough. That is a very good gain; 7% is certainly a nice addition. I remember Joe having little luck with his one before his engine build. I am not sure whether he is using his now.

What was the final power/torque figure? And was the gain throughout the rev-range?

Alex

[Paladin06Greg]

Yea, I think we can do better as my mechanic likes the safe side of A/F mixture where I will lean her out alittle more at the high end.

If I recall correctly JoeB had a water injection system this is 50/50% water/meth and the trick is OBD II Data.

I got an additional 22/23 HP and the like for ft lbs of torque. I also got 25 - 29 degrees drop in inlet temp which promotes a safer combustion chamber temp. Lower is better and we know what higher is!!

Oh fair enough. That is a very good gain; 7% is certainly a nice addition. I remember Joe having little luck with his one before his engine build. I am not sure whether he is using his now.

What was the final power/torque figure? And was the gain throughout the rev-range?

Alex

[Astro]

Wow, 22/23 HP and TQ. I wonder what you numbers to the wheels are now.

[Alex(AUS)]

Wow, 22/23 HP and TQ. I wonder what you numbers to the wheels are now.

Ahm 22hp at 7% equals 314hp at the wheels total (or was that a flywheel figure?). Is that correct Greg?

Alex

[Paladin06Greg]

Wow, 22/23 HP and TQ. I wonder what you numbers to the wheels are now.

Ahm 22hp at 7% equals 314hp at the wheels total (or was that a flywheel figure?). Is that correct Greg?

Alex

[Monkeyman]

Greg,
Where did you tap for the injector? Did you drill and tap the throttle body?

Thanks,
David

[Paladin06Greg]

Just forward of it. See pic on my site.

Greg,
Where did you tap for the injector? Did you drill and tap the throttle body?

Thanks,
David

[JoeB]

Yea, I think we can do better as my mechanic likes the safe side of A/F mixture where I will lean her out alittle more at the high end.

If I recall correctly JoeB had a water injection system this is 50/50% water/meth and the trick is OBD II Data.

I got an additional 22/23 HP and the like for ft lbs of torque. I also got 25 - 29 degrees drop in inlet temp which promotes a safer combustion chamber temp. Lower is better and we know what higher is!!

Ok, I've been letting this go but I gotta step in and say BS, Greg you are CLUELESS!

First of all, this is obviously NOT the first water/meth injection on the Camry/Solara. Secondly, I think the hp numbers are BS. The way to increase the hp numbers from water injection is through specific heat absorption. I tested different mixtures and volumes with the advice of a PHD in this area and didn't have much luck. I ran back to back dynos with and without WI and it was a direct overlay. I was told our setup makes it VERY diificult for the WI to be effective. If you have dyno numbers, show the charts.

Now on to the OBD2 comment... I doubt there are many that know more than I do about tuning using OBD2 info. If you don't believe me ask others and even your mechanic. The really stupid part is the OBD2 tuning is for your LOW map (read: LIGHT throttle). The OBD2 is useless for the high end where the real power is made. At the high end you are in open loop and you need to tune off a WBO2. The only OBD2 info you really want to read in open loop is timing.

Next, you completely screwed up that comment about your mechanic liking the safe side of A/F mixture leaning it out on the high end. Leaning it out on the high end is more dangerous. The lean condition combined with the increased heat from the power is what promotes detonation... The safer side is to richen the mixture at the high end.

The real clincher on the BS is your temperature / hp stateement. Quick math says if you got a temperature reduction of 25-29 degrees inlet temperature, that would be about 3hp. It's roughly 1hp for 10*F. Secondly, that reduced temperature helps but is quickly absorbed in the sc which we are WAY over revving past redline generating serious heat.

Sorry for the strong response but many people reading here don't know and read what you write and take it as gospel. You've done a lot with your car and we all respect that. Just be careful not to lead people astray because they respect for the work done on the car. -JoeB

[Paladin06Greg]

Joe,

I have no desire to get into a pissing contest with you on this forum.

1. No one doubts your knowledge of the OBD II system and its tools but I have had regular contact with several people in CA who do this for a living I believe they may have you beat.

2. I didn't say I got the HP gain from the temp drop alone. It was timing, additional boost and A/F adjustment supported by the Water/Meth system.

3. I have dyno numbers but dyno numbers don't mean **** to me. You want to race. Shut off your NOS and say where and when.

4. I stand by my comment about the A/F mixture. Rich is more conservative but the Water/Meth system alllows you to lean out without dentotation and my MSD DIS 4 also allows me to pull timing if necessary.

5. I don't come here to game or disrespect anyone (CLUELESS). Never have never will.

6. Name your race day!! After my surgery of course.

Yea, I think we can do better as my mechanic likes the safe side of A/F mixture where I will lean her out alittle more at the high end.

If I recall correctly JoeB had a water injection system this is 50/50% water/meth and the trick is OBD II Data.

I got an additional 22/23 HP and the like for ft lbs of torque. I also got 25 - 29 degrees drop in inlet temp which promotes a safer combustion chamber temp. Lower is better and we know what higher is!!

Ok, I've been letting this go but I gotta step in and say BS, Greg you are CLUELESS!

First of all, this is obviously NOT the first water/meth injection on the Camry/Solara. Secondly, I think the hp numbers are BS. The way to increase the hp numbers from water injection is through specific heat absorption. I tested different mixtures and volumes with the advice of a PHD in this area and didn't have much luck. I ran back to back dynos with and without WI and it was a direct overlay. I was told our setup makes it VERY diificult for the WI to be effective. If you have dyno numbers, show the charts.

Now on to the OBD2 comment... I doubt there are many that know more than I do about tuning using OBD2 info. If you don't believe me ask others and even your mechanic. The really stupid part is the OBD2 tuning is for your LOW map (read: LIGHT throttle). The OBD2 is useless for the high end where the real power is made. At the high end you are in open loop and you need to tune off a WBO2. The only OBD2 info you really want to read in open loop is timing.

Next, you completely screwed up that comment about your mechanic liking the safe side of A/F mixture leaning it out on the high end. Leaning it out on the high end is more dangerous. The lean condition combined with the increased heat from the power is what promotes detonation... The safer side is to richen the mixture at the high end.

The real clincher on the BS is your temperature / hp stateement. Quick math says if you got a temperature reduction of 25-29 degrees inlet temperature, that would be about 3hp. It's roughly 1hp for 10*F. Secondly, that reduced temperature helps but is quickly absorbed in the sc which we are WAY over revving past redline generating serious heat.

Sorry for the strong response but many people reading here don't know and read what you write and take it as gospel. You've done a lot with your car and we all respect that. Just be careful not to lead people astray because they respect for the work done on the car. -JoeB

[JoeB]

Joe,

I have no desire to get into a pissing contest with you on this forum.

1. No one doubts your knowledge of the OBD II system and its tools but I have had regular contact with several people in CA who do this for a living I believe they may have you beat.

2. I didn't say I got the HP gain from the temp drop alone. It was timing, additional boost and A/F adjustment supported by the Water/Meth system.

3. I have dyno numbers but dyno numbers don't mean **** to me. You want to race. Shut off your NOS and say where and when.

4. I stand by my comment about the A/F mixture. Rich is more conservative but the Water/Meth system alllows you to lean out without dentotation and my MSD DIS 4 also allows me to pull timing if necessary.

5. I don't come here to game or disrespect anyone (CLUELESS). Never have never will.

6. Name your race day!! After my surgery of course.

My LAST intention is to start a pissing match. I hate the HATE posts and certainly don't like to contribute but as I said, many people will read what you wrote and take it for gospel. "I gotta go buy a WI system for 7% increase in power!". I'd like to keep this in the open as an informational for others. If what you say is really true, post it for others constructively. I just don't want to sit back and watch wreckless, misleading info go out to lead others astray without challenging them. Sorry about the "clueless" comment, I watched it going too long and got frustrated...

1. I have worked with MANY people in the industry that tune for a living and they don't have me beat on OBD2 tuning... I'm not saying I know everything but I know enough to challenge that comment. Not a pissing match, just please explain how "the trick is OBD II Data". As I mentioned, all you're getting out of OBD2 info on the high end is the ability to monitor your timing.

2. Here is where I say your information is misleading. Additional boost has nothing to do with the water injection. Running the A/F leaner with WI is a common practicve because the properties of water and methanol give an almost infinite octane rating combined with the specific heat absorption allows for a leaner tune. Ask a little more about where you got the additional timing advance. I already know the answer and it has nothing to do with the WI and that is where the power came from. So if the power came from that combination, you shouldn't just tell people that the WI gives a 7% increase in power.

3. That's the funniest thing I ever heard! Turn off my N20? Get real!! I built my car the way I want it and it is built to take it. Post your 1/4 slip! I'm not saying dyno charts are the gospel but at least it is data rather than just talk. No dyno chart and no 1/4 mile slip= all talk...

4. How can you say you stand behind your statement on the A/F when it is a complete contradiction? You just contradicted yourself again when at first you said your "mechanic likes the safe side of A/F mixture where I will lean her out alittle more at the high end" and now you say, "Rich is more conservative". It doesn't matter if you have the protection of WI or not leaner is riskier, richer is safer... I agree WI gives protection to allow for a little leaner tune but that doesn't make it safer to go leaner.

5. Again sorry about the "clueless" comment, frustration...

6. Again on the race issue. I've never been in it to compete against any body here. I have my own personal goals with my car and it has nothing to do with how fast someone else's car is. Money determines how fast someone's car is. There will always be a faster car. I'm sure you have a ton of money in your car and can even spend more. That doesn't change any of the comments I made above and is really a distraction. Post your 1/4 mile slip... We don't have to get together... By the way, good luck with the surgery, I hope all goes well.

So the real story is, you have recently seen an increase in timing advance (so have I) and I know how that happened, completely unrelated to the WI. That DEFINITELY increased the power! The other increase in power is due to tuning the car leaner which you feel comfortable with because of the protection WI offers. That is where the power increase came from so others don't run out and buy a water injection system and wonder why they didn't get 7% increase in power.

My recommendation would be not to run the car leaner. Use the water injection only as a means of reducing heat soak in the sc. The only "good" spot to inject water/meth is between the MAF/AIT and the throttle body in the intake tube, perpendicular at a 9:00 or 3:00 position. By the time that mixture gets to the sc, it is completely evaporated there. I think running it leaner with that setup is still riskier. I would run the same A/F and just use the W/I for safety by bringing down the temp a little in the sc. -JoeB

[SC V6]

Shut off your NOS and say where and when.

LOL... thats how his car is setup... thats like asking someone to run lower boost for a race


Joe is just trying to save people money who don't read into these things very much. He is correct in saying that its not the WI that gave the power. He's watching out for those who are looking for the simple Get Fast quick plan. The people who want to just run the least expensive upgrade by itself to get the most power...

We are all friends here guys... which of course goes w\o saying

[Paladin06Greg]

Like everyone here, I do my homework, ask questions and proceed at risk. The biggest problem is you don't know what you don't know. I'm done with this thread it's going no where fast.

I apologize if anyone here thought I was trying to get them to waste their hard earned money! (laughing at the thought)

Moving on.

[shidosha01]

Okay okay. Thats enough fellas. Damn I hate to see compadres take this public.

[shidosha01]

I have decided to unlock this topic because inquiring minds want to know more about how power was gained through this Water Injection system. I'M NOT TAKING SIDES BUT.... I believe JoeB was the first to flirt with Water Injection on a Solara last year.

GENTLEMEN KEEP IT CLEAN!

[gman]

I have the water injection system that JB used in his car. The concept of more hp from Water/Meth has a lot of deviation. If you tune your car to best of your ability and head to the dyno to substantiate your work and make yourself feel good, do your first run without and second with the water injection. No other changes and see if you get higher hp #s. Joe has done this over a year ago. I will be doing it in a few weeks. I hope to be able to confirm that just W/I doesn't increase hp. I opted for it on the principle that it will lower intake temperature enough to keep down unhealthy heat that our s/chargers make. Detonation is manifested in heat. Water/Meth can't possible lower intake temps just help TRY keeping down heat. Run your car in a 0 degree day on an outside dyno and that may give you measureable hp/tq gains. I look forward to some healthy comments here on timing and afr and closed/open loop tuning.
Let em rip boyz****
Gman~