Water/Meth Injection System

[Paladin06Greg]

I will not comment on this matter ever again. You want facts from people with PHD's contact www.snowperformance.com. Ask for Matt or Randall.

Gone!!

[gman]

Ok then....
So how many people have used water injection for any length of time and have before and after numbers to offer. I would love to keep this post going just to see how much knowledge and experience there really is. I will report all I can offer after my dyno tune. I am lucky enough to have one of only a few dynos on the east coast close to me that has the dyno roll in the ground. Dez Racing in Seekonk Ma. People come from many states away to get a dyno tune there. I have not posted a slip on this forum since I started this project last August. And will be hitting the track with trd4life and thakidd this fall once their cars are ready. Let's keep this going please....

[JoeB]

Sorry ahead of time for the long post but for informational/archive purposes, I'd like to offer this information. With our supercharged application, if you have water injection, tune your car ahead of time, make a dyno run with WI then make another run without WI, you will not realize a gain from the water injection.

I'm not going to get into all the details but will just restate that the best place to inject the water is in the intake tube between the MAF/AIT and the throttle body. The problem is, water/methanol injected here will be completely evaporated in the supercharger which reaches temperatures of around 250*F (depending on level of boost).

The way people get more power out of WI is just what Greg said, it allows you to tune the car leaner with the protection from pre-detonation. To do this however, the water/methanol mixture would need to make it to the combustion chamber in roughly a 10-15% mixture to fuel. Water has a very high heat absorption. The very small drops of water absorb heat. Methanol does even better (more than alchahol or ethanol) however methanol is also corrosive so typically a 50/50 mixture of water/methanol is used. So where this falls short is, I don't believe the water ever makes it to the combustion chamber in our supercharged application and I'll explain why later.

The next step, tuning the car leaner has definitely been proven to increase power but at risk. Engines run most efficiently at 14.7:1 A/F. So why don't we tune for 14.7:1 accross the board? Power generates heat, fuel also absorbs some of that heat so we richen it up more on the top end. General industry practice is to tune to 12.5:1 however our car seems to want more fuel.

What you can do is similar to the way we would tune many years ago on carburated systems. We used to turn the mixture screw on the carburator all the way in, then back it out 2.5-3 turns and adjust for best power without knock. Of course this was complicated by manually adjusting timing and changing the springs in the vacuum advance mechanism of the distributor. The concept is similar. Take a baseline run and monitor timing, adjust mixture a little richer first to see if you gain timing advance. If so, you were probably running too lean and knock was causing the ECU to pull timing. If timing didn't change, try leaning it out a little (like .5 AFR). If the timing doesn't change, lean it out a little more. Do this until timing just starts to fall of, indicating you've reached the knock threshold. Once you get there, you need to richen it just a little for protection.

So where am I going with long painful post? Once you get to that point, if the water injection IS providing the ability to add power by letting you run leaner, you will be able to lean it out even more and will not lose the timing. My experience showed no difference and is the foundation for my comments. Of course my disclaimer is, this is based on my personal experiences. If your experience differs, please share it. Nobody do this based on my comments, consult a professional so he is accountable cause I'm not. -JoeB

[Alex(AUS)]

I have decided to unlock this topic because inquiring minds want to know more about how power was gained through this Water Injection system. I'M NOT TAKING SIDES BUT.... I believe JoeB was the first to flirt with Water Injection on a Solara last year.

GENTLEMEN KEEP IT CLEAN!

To be fair, I think that Tiem tried the water injection stuff before Joe. I did mention that when Joe posted his first topic on his WI unit.

Alex

[Paladin06Greg]

Water/Methanol Injection- Power vs. Methanol Concentration


By Matt Snow

Water injection has been used for years in diesels primarily in competition. Benefits include increased charge air density, reduced combustion temps and cooler exhaust gas temps.
Although water is typically used as an intercooler between stages of compounded turbochargers to cool the air charge, the addition of methanol brings a fuel/combustion effect into the system. There is considerable research showing the effects of water and methanol on diesel combustion. The data focuses on heat release and combustion pressure (power), emissions (especially NOx-nitrogen oxides, and PM – particulate matter or “soot”), fuel efficiency (brake specific fuel consumption - BSFC), engine cooling, and the impact on lubricant quality. A quick look at the recent data on power production reveals some interesting points:


1. Injected water slows combustion thus delaying effective peak cylinder pressure.
2. Injected methanol slows combustion if cylinder temps are too low, but increases the combustion rate when cylinder temps are high.
These facts would indicate that to inject water and methanol before normal operating temperatures or at too low a boost level will not result in maximal power increases unless injection timing is advanced to compensate for the ignition delay. After normal operating temperature is reached at high boost (over 15psig) and high load conditions (>86% full), Methanol speeds-up the timing event while water conditions combustion by slowing it.
3. Water when combusted produces steam both at the start of injection and during the power stroke. This increases combustion pressure after peak pressure which effectively prolongs power production during the power stroke, "A calculation indicates that one can expect a 3-psi increase in mean effective pressure (assuming about 75psi IMEP)."1. One issue is that water will not convert to steam during peak combustion pressures. This indicates that the pressure/power effect of vaporization occurs only during the beginning of the compression stroke and the last half of the power stroke. "When water is injected between 85-30° BTC and therefore just prior to fuel injection results in a substantial increase in ignition delay, stronger effective cooling, and a substantial power increase." 1.
Whereas peak combustion pressure is increased only slightly, total work done in the power stroke is increased.
4. Methanol when combusted along with diesel contributes to power as evidenced by increased heat release and peak combustion pressures. Diesel fuel in combination with methanol seems to act as a catalyst to “light off” methanol as higher heat is needed for methanol combustion.
5. Methanol is an oxidizer as well as a fuel in that oxygen is donated to the combustion process increasing the fueling potential of a combination. This is of interest in combinations that are over fueled in an attempt to extract all the power out of the available oxygen.
As a side light, the research on diesel emissions and water injection reveals:
1. "The vaporization of water as well as a local increase in specific heat of the gas around the flame resulted in lower Nitrogen Oxide emissions (NOx) and soot formation rates." 2.
2. Both NOx and PM are decreased in low (20%) and med. (44%) load cases with water injection. Interestingly, at high load (86%) NOx is decreased as expected, but soot remains unchanged possible due to the late injection of fuel in the full power fueling strategy. Advancing the injection timing to compensate for the additional ignition delay
with water injection lowers soot output markedly.
3. Methanol offers potential for reduced emission of both NOx and particulate (PM) in compression ignition engines, especially when used as a replacement fuel (power output is kept constant through the reduction in diesel injection.).
4. Water injection increases both hydrocarbon (HC) and (CO) carbon monoxide emission slightly due to incomplete combustion caused by delayed ignition.

The research shows that in a diesel at normal operating temps, increasing the methanol concentration of a manifold water/methanol injection system will cause cylinder pressure to rise faster thus increasing the effective timing of the combustion event. This fact and increased peak cylinder pressure will result in increased power.

To test this, we used the Mustang chassis dyno at ATS Diesel Performance in Arvada, CO. A 1.227 correction factor was used to bring the data to standard as ATS is at approx 6000ft elevation.

The test vehicle was a 2004 Dodge Cummins Diesel 3500 dually with 9000 miles on the odometer. The only performance upgrade included an Edge EZ performance box set at level #4. Three concentrations of methanol/water were tested: approx. 33/67% ( windshield washer fluid, Wal-Mart , blue, -20°f ), 50/50% , and 75/25%. For a complete comparison, the dyno results for the stock truck are included along with the baseline dyno run with the Edge EZ.

A Stage-2 Diesel Boost Cooler® water/methanol injection system by Snow Performance was used with 375 and 625 ml/min nozzles with the pump set at 150psi. The HD Digital Variable Controller was set at 20psig onset and 30psig full. With this system, approx. 50% of full qty is injected at the onset setting gradually ramping up to 100% at the full setting. This minimizes combustion quench at lower boost levels and provides for maximum cooling/power at higher levels.

Two runs were made with each test condition to flag any problems. Between runs, a standard cool down time of 20 min was incorporated and temperature data was taken at various points in order to better relate the data. The following table demonstrates the results:



The results demonstrate the effect on power of increasing concentrations of methanol. It must be noted that the emissions friendly retarded injection timing of the stock ’04 Cummins and the fact that the Edge EZ doesn’t add appreciable timing,
allows the use of over 50% methanol. If starting higher than 16° advanced injection timing could result in “diesel knock” which puts high strain on various engine parts. Most with pre-2003 HPCR Cummins diesels should use 50% methanol maximum. In the future, the exhaust gas temp. reducing effects of varying concentrations of water/methanol will be demonstrated. Thanks much to Clint, Will, and Jake at ATS for making this article possible.

Sources:

ATS Performance Diesel
5291 Ward Road
Arvada, CO 80002
(800) 949-6002
www.atsdiesel.com

Snow Performance
5697 Trout Creek Road
Woodland Park, CO 80863
(719) 271-5644

[Paladin06Greg]

1. What are the benefits of Water/Methanol injection?

Boost Cooler® Benefits (Gasoline):

1. Low cost - where else can you get up to 60HP for $299.
2. More power than other means of detonation control.
3. Efficiency - leaner air fuel ratio can be utilized for normal operation.
4. Greatly increases air charge densities for huge horsepower increases.

Boost Cooler Benefits (Diesel):

1. Greatly reduced EGT’s. Decreases of 250 degrees F are common using a 50/50% Methanol /Water mix. This prevents the usual problems associated with high exhaust car temperatures - rings sticking, holed pistons, etc.
2. Low cost power - where else can you get 70-100 HP for approximately $400 along with reduced EGT's.
3. Greatly increased air charge densities - 3-5 psig boost increases are common.
4. Great for towing - more power/cooler EGT's to haul the heaviest loads.

2. Do I need an Intercooler with Water/Methanol injection?

Up to approximately 20 psi boost, water/methanol injection will provide all the density increase/detonation control needed in most applications. Of course, Intercooling and water/methanol injection would provide even greater benefits especially beyond 20 psi boost. Most air-to-air intercoolers are only 50-65% efficient. That means for example, that with 11psi boost and its 120°f air charge temperature increase, an intercooler reduces the air charge temperature only 60 degrees. Also, an intercooler will reduce boost 2 - 4 psi. on average.

3. Why not use a windshield washer pump?

Water/Methanol must be injected at above 50psi to properly atomize. Lower than 50psi causes greatly reduced air charge cooling as the result of larger droplets and their reduced total surface area.

4. Why methanol?

Methanol is a high octane fuel that is extremely resistant to detonation with an excellent cost/benefit ratio. ($1.50 - $2.00 per gallon.) Its high latent heat of vaporization also makes it an excellent air charge cooler which means a denser mixture and more horsepower. Because of these facts, it is a better anti-detonant than ethanol or iso-propanol although they will work in a pinch. It has however only about 60% of the energy content of gasoline by volume so about twice as much is used to make similar power if used as a straight fuel. It is extremely toxic and should be handled with rubber gloves in well ventilated areas only. Care should be taken to avoid skin contact.

5. How much Water/Methanol?

To prevent detonation, the ratio of Water/Methanol to gasoline is roughly 1 to 5 in gasoline applications- 1 to 4 in diesel. In practice, you give it as much water / methanol as it takes to eliminate detonation without quenching combustion. The amount depends on the onset RPM of injection, the octane of the gasoline, fuel/air ratio, cylinder head type, even the weather conditions. Your engine is actually pretty tolerant of extra water vapor, you will know it's too much when the engine misses and loses power.

6. Where can I purchase Methanol?

Methanol can generally be purchased where racing fuels are sold. Also, most gas line dryers like "Heat" are simply Methanol. Suppliers of industrial chemicals can also supply Methanol usually at a higher price than fuel suppliers. If all else fails, most windshield washer fluids are up to 40% Methanol and 58% water. Methanol can be purchased on the web at www.worldwideracingfuels.com and hiperfuels.com.

7. How long will a tank (2 qts.) last?

In high boost/high horsepower application, a full blast 1/4 mile run will utilize as much as 1/8 tank. A larger tank should be considered if over 9psi boost is utilized in road racing where a tank can be used in as few as 6 - 2 mile/ full tilt laps. Under normal street use in a 400 HP Mustang, a tank usually lasts about 500 miles. Two reservoirs can be used for 1-gal total capacity if desired. Turbo diesels use more qty. and usually utilize the existing windshield washer reservoir (over 4 qts. in most cases) or the new 8-gal reservoir upgrade. More will always be used when the system is first installed, less when the novelty wears off.

8. Can I use windshield washer fluid?

Although most contain some glycol and detergent, most windshield washer fluids are up to 50% alcohol (methanol, ethanol, isopropanol) and make an excellent Boost Cooler®. Try to find one that indicates "contains methanol".

9. At what boost level do I introduce Water/Methanol?

Centrifugal superchargers/large turbos: Generally, at 50% of peak boost the recommended quantity should be introduced. Positive displacement superchargers/ fast spooling turbos: injection should occur at or near peak boost to avoid combustion quench since peak boost occurs so fast.

10. What ratio of Water/Methanol is recommended?

A 50/50 ratio is recommended. This has been demonstrated to be the best for charge/air cooling, excellent detonation control, and controlling cylinder temperature. This includes diesel applications where water conditions the combustion of the methanol so combustion timing isn't affected.

11. Many recommend Denso Iridium spark plugs in boosted applications. Will these work also with water/methanol injection?

Denso Iridium spark plugs are highly recommended with the Boost Cooler®. Iridiums, with their low firing thresholds and intense spark, allow for larger quantities to be injected sooner without misfiring. This allows for more cooling of the intake air. If you have a misfiring problem, nine times out of ten, Iridiums will clear it up.

12. Will water/methanol harm my engine?

In theory, at recommended quantities, most of the mixture is evaporated before it hits the combustion chamber. Also, injection only takes place at high boost levels minimizing cylinder wash concerns. Engines that have been torn down after two years of water/methanol usage have shown no wear issues only clean combustion chambers. In fact, water/methanol reduces the probability of engine destroying detonation. Think of it as an insurance policy against detonation.

13. Can the Boost Cooler® be applied to naturally aspirated and nitrous engines?

1.Naturally aspirated/high compression engines:

In this application, water/methanol injection allows the use of pump fuel in all but the most extreme situations which effects tremendous cost savings as well as horsepower increases due to air density increase and realized timing potential. The system is activated by a throttle switch so that injection takes place only during high engine loads when needed.

2. NOS engines: With NOS, water/methanol injection allows the use of full timing even with large (250HP+) quantities. Injection is controlled by the same means that controls NOS injection.

3. Naturally aspirated/stock compression: With naturally aspirated engines with less than 10:1 compression, water/methanol is used typically in warm climates to get the intake temps back to 60°f. Benefits include: 10-15 HP increases from air density increases and full timing, Increased gas mileage, and carbon free combustion chambers. Activation is by a throttle switch adjusted for onset engine load. With this application, the nozzle is sized so that no more than 10% of total fuel consumption at peak flywheel HP is injected.

14. Why is Water/Methanol injection so effective on Diesels?

Unlike gasoline engines, the power in a turbo diesel is largely a function of fuel. The problem with continually adding fuel is that you reach a point where the exhaust gas temperatures become prohibitive (over 1500 degrees F). A 50/50% Methanol/Water mix will decrease EGT's approximately 250°+ while increasing power 70-100HP.

Power is increased through:

a. Intake charge cooling - Water/methanol will lower air charge temps over 200°f in this application.
b. Methanol - this acts as a fuel as well as cooling the intake charge.

Where else can you get this kind of power with cooler EGT's!

15. Is this technology new with Turbo Diesel?

Water/methanol injection has been used extensively for years in high performance truck/tractor pullers. With the elevated boost levels required for peak power, water/methanol is a common means of cooling the intake charge and reducing exhaust gas temps. Also, truckers have used water injection for years to increase fuel mileage.

[JoeB]

Boost Cooler® Benefits (Gasoline):

1. Low cost - where else can you get up to 60HP for $299.
2. More power than other means of detonation control.
3. Efficiency - leaner air fuel ratio can be utilized for normal operation.
4. Greatly increases air charge densities for huge horsepower increases.

Most of the last couple posts were irrelevant and don't address the topic at hand. The above points were the only part that came close so I'll address these:

1. This is an EXTREMELY lose comment. 60hp??? What was the base power of the engine that produced tthis differential, it makes a HUGE difference. Also, was it diesel or gas and if it was gas, was it turbo? As Matt mentions in the article, the power doesn't come from injecting the water, it comes from the water supressing knock allowing for a leaner mixture to be run giving more power and/or cooler charge air density.

2. No doubt it offers more power than other means of detonation control. The problem is as I've mentioned a couple times, those specific benefits are not helping us because the mixture isn't making it to the combustion chamber. The people who see the biggest gains with WI are turbos and diesel. They are typically 2 different scenarios. As Matt mentioned in the first article, the typical benefit for diesels is the increased charge air density. For diesels, they get the biggest gains. That's why typically when you see WI being marketed, they use diesels as a reference. The water injection serves a dual benefit by cooling the charge air density (lower air temperature means more burnable O2=more power) AND the supression of detonation because of the presence of water/methanol mixture now in the combustion chamber allows for leaner air fuel mixtures, producing more power.

3. As I mentioned a couple times and above, not in our application since the WI never makes it to the combustion chamber, this benefit is not realized.

4. This is definitely not applicable. That is a general statement that really only applies to diesel. In fact Matt even mentions with turbos, you lose about 2-3psi. The reason for that is they aren't injecting the water in the intake, they are injecting water in the same location an inter-cooler is used (between charges as Matt says). That's great for bringing down the temperature for safety plus the mixture then makes it to the combustion chamber where it can add the benefit of detonation supression allowing safe leaner A/F mixtures. The reason why the boost goes down is becaus the turbo already did it's job and took the incoming air and boosted it to lets say 20psi. Now the WI comes in and cools that air down. The air volume remains constant however the density of that air is increased meaning less pressure. The net effect is losing a couple psi but for decent gains with a turbo. If we had a pipe coming out of the supercharger that was like a turbo, that's where I'd choose to inject. I considered tapping the sc and injecting straight into it and was talked out of it by a few very knowledgable people on the subject. -JoeB

[Alex(AUS)]

In the end ... the theory and marketing sounds nice. However, we need to see whether this is applicable to our cars. As Joe said, it may well be the case that "the mixture isn't making it to the combustion chamber" (and I have no reason not to take Joe's data). Therefore, if the water injection system does infact work, we need to see the data which proves it (using the same environmental conditions).

You could even look at those CO2 coolers ... they have some nice marketing aswell ... but I believe Gabe found no benefits (power on the dyno) from their use.

Alex

[Alex(AUS)]

Oh, as a reference, CO2 cooler marketing stuff can be found at -> http://www.designengineering.com/produc ... m=sc&cid=1

Alex

[Paladin06Greg]

Damn I hate this!!

OK, I was angry. I'm over it, almost.

[trd4life]

Greg i was checking out your car site and this is what you wrote

"Snow Performance Boost Cooler Stage II MAF - Water/Meth Injection System install is complete. Have a look and let me know what you think. Dyno complete with 7% hp increase. "

I was curious as to what your car dynoed at? Would you care to share the numbers witrh other members of the forum? I am very interested seeing the chart.

thanks

[gman]

I will not comment on this matter ever again. You want facts from people with PHD's contact www.snowperformance.com. Ask for Matt or Randall.

Gone!!

What happened here....I call them as I see them and someone is taking things too personally. All anyone SHOULD want from this post is to DISCUSS the benefits of water injection to our cars SPECIFIC to OUR application. Some folks are promoters of promotion. Not everything promoted is advantageous and 100% literal to every application. Putting aside the emotion although that can be difficult for some, what we have is a product that can benefit our cars but to what degree. To hoist a bunch of data onto this forum with most the promotion not specific to our application, is great stuff, but let's remember this started from the point of W/I can give a 20 hp gain. W/I in our application ASSISTS the capability to run more boost and maintain more timing and that is what yields more power. Our S/Chargers are not intercooled so the longer we hold down the throttle heat contunues to build even with W/I. B/c of the intense heat the Meth/Water basicly never gets to the combustion area. One person wants to be the captain of an idea and another wants to clarify and specificy it's benefits. Two different personalities and two different objectives. Nothing in this post was racist so let's keep it out. If you want to make it personal take it to PM right away. No one is taken as gospel. Some folks clarify and qualify everything and some don't do it enough. Based on the fact this is a forum to a specific carline with only a few folks doing the bulk of the work, be constructive with our posts, share what works and don't take it personal when someone challenges or has another approach. Let each looker take what they want from it and those that want to add to it be constructive.....This post will probably be closed b/c it had to go personal....again. I tried to clarify where the benefits are to ours specific cars and for the mostpart only two people are putting any content into this and that's not working out. I will post my conclusions in a few weeks for all the peeps out there that have 4-6 lbs of boost and have water injection or are thinking about installing it and that's probably not that many. Keep having fun and for crying out loud let's work together.

And when we say Peace ...let's mean it!!!!

[JoeB]

Damn I hate this!!

OK, last time folks. Why when I say my CB chamber temperature dropped or anything else, it is questioned and when Mr. Joe disputes it, his word is gospel? Am being called a liar here?

I knew before the first day we met at AMS that you, in your mind, and others had warned me that you had all the answers. I have seen it too many times before and as many, I covered them for the trip home. NPJMO.

Enjoy the ride. It is obvious that you really do not want the community to consider any other source of info as truth other then yours. What a shame as you have so much to share. IMO

Is it ego or prejudice that stirs your wrath is my concern? I do not see you attacking any other members other then me. Hell even Milt spreads the wealth. I will distance myself from this play of words and ego until the day!

Until the day JoeB. I wait with great anticipation of victory since, I will never taste DEFEAT! Perhaps death, but never defeat.

We have an old saying from my other life, that you will not appreciate but it goes something like this “when I loose to victory, she will also know the bitter taste of defeat”.


GENTLEMEN AND GENTLEWOMEN thanks for you time. Until we meet again.

Greg,

You're the one making this personal. I am simply trying to discuss these points on a factual basis. If you can't keep up, don't just whimp out and say it's an ego thing, if anything it is your ego. Because I come here and challenge what you've posted and you don't know enough to counter my points with a good technical discussion you just try to turn it into something else. It isn't personal. I'd like to keep a good technical discussion going so we can determine what the real value is to a WI system on our car. I never said I have all the answers but I certainly have a lot of data and want to keep this going.

I didn't come here to attack YOU, I challenged misleading comments that could lead others astray like, "The WMI System provided an additional SAFE 7% increase in HP. I will increase that with a few A/F adjustments now that have my own OBD II scanner and data logger tool on a laptop." You said here that the WI system gave the 7% increase andd you will increase with a few A/F adjustments. When questioned based on facts, you back-pedaled and said, "It was timing, additional boost and A/F adjustment supported by the Water/Meth system." In fact MOST of that gain came from timing on a completely unrelated to the WI system modification.

You never said your "CB chamber temperature dropped". What you said is,"I also got 25 - 29 degrees drop in inlet temp which promotes a safer combustion chamber temp." I know you can monitor the temperature in the intake from the AIT sensor through the OBD2, you can also monitor the temperature inside the sc but please explain to us how you monitor the temperatures IN the combustion chamber or are you really talking about EGT? The temperature may drop a little in the combustion chamber, it would make sense. The temperature must drop a little in the sc and the air is passed from there. I said the mixture didn't appear to be making it to the combustion chamber not that the temperatures weren't a little cooler there. The presence of the water/methanol mixture is what supresses the knock by offering an almost infinite octane rating. I say that because when trying to lean the mixture out any more than without WI, I still got knock and timing was reduced by the ECU.

When I refer to WI or Water Injection, it is a generic term. In the industry people just commonly refer to it as a water injection system, not I have an ethanol/water injection system or methanol/water or alchol injection. So when you say, "If I recall correctly JoeB had a water injection system this is 50/50% water/meth and the trick is OBD II Data." I tried many combinations to get a result of leaner mixtures while maintaining timing (meaning no more knock). I tried straight water, 20/80 methaol/water and 50/50 methanol/water, all with the same result.

I'm not going to dignify the rest of the babble with a response. Rizall asked we keep it clean and I'm trying to keep this an informative discussion. -JoeB

[Alex(AUS)]

Damn I hate this!!

OK, last time folks. Why when I say my CB chamber temperature dropped or anything else, it is questioned and when Mr. Joe disputes it, his word is gospel? Am being called a liar here?

I knew before the first day we met at AMS that you, in your mind, and others had warned me that you had all the answers. I have seen it too many times before and as many, I covered them for the trip home. NPJMO.

Enjoy the ride. It is obvious that you really do not want the community to consider any other source of info as truth other then yours. What a shame as you have so much to share. IMO

Is it ego or prejudice that stirs your wrath is my concern? I do not see you attacking any other members other then me. Hell even Milt spreads the wealth. I will distance myself from this play of words and ego until the day!

Until the day JoeB. I wait with great anticipation of victory since, I will never taste DEFEAT! Perhaps death, but never defeat.

We have an old saying from my other life, that you will not appreciate but it goes something like this “when I loose to victory, she will also know the bitter taste of defeat”.


GENTLEMEN AND GENTLEWOMEN thanks for you time. Until we meet again.

YOU CANT BE SERIOUS!!! Mate, we are talking about water injection, take it easy. This is what a forum is about; different people with different understanding/experience/views etc all for the greater benefit of the members. If you are going to take something like this to that stupid level you dont deserve to be a part of the group. I am glad the post was retracted.

Alex

[shidosha01]

If this continues I'm gonna have to lock this again.

THIS DISAGREEMENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE! I KNOW JOE AND IS A CLASSY GUY. REMEMBER THAT HE TOO HAD HIS MOTOR BUILT BY A MINORITY OWNED BUSINESS. SO ASSUMING HE IS PREJUDIST IS UNCALLED FOR.

I'M NOT TAKING SIDES BUT I'M JUST TYPING OUT WHAT I SEE AND TO BE HONEST IT MAKES ME SICK.

TO EVERYONE ELSE. YOU'VE HEARD BOTH PARTIES AND WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY NOW DO SOME OF YOUR HOMEWORK AND RESEARCH! YOU MAKE THE CHOICE WHETHER OR NOT THIS PRODUCT OR OTHER RELATED PARTS WILL MEET YOUR NEEDS.

AT THIS POINT BOTH PARTIES SHOULD AGREE TO DISAGREE.